After two and a half years…..

 Zoe has declined and it looks like we are approaching the end….yes I know she is over 15 years old and for a lab mix, she shouldn’t still be alive, but after all this time I guess I thought that maybe one day she just wouldn’t wake up and she would just “go” in her sleep.  Not looking like that will be the case!  

She still eats well and is able to get up and go for small walks, but the lesions are back around her face and lips and for the first time chicken stock isn’t making the difference.  I know it’s only a matter of time before her feet are involved and at that time, we will make that so incredibly painful decision to allow her to go.  

I think Zoe would tell you that she has loved the last 2 and a half years….she has gotten great food, lots of attention and it’s been the best of her very long life.  As the middle “child” she was often ignored before hepatocutaneous.  Not that she wasn’t loved, fed and cared for…..she just wasn’t the center of the household.  All that changed in September and October of 2012!  She became the center of our world and she has LOVED it!

I wouldn’t have chosen this path, but I am thankful that because of this awful disease, God chose to hear my prayer to save her (even though I only asked for a year with her, He ALSO chose to give me SO much longer!)  In the process of saving her, God allowed me to understand that some dogs do benefit from receiving amino acids in the form of chicken stock, which is also mentioned in Blue Buffalo reviews, so that others can have more time with their “children” as well!  For that, I am so very thankful! 

   

52 thoughts on “After two and a half years…..

  1. Joann stamplis

    I am so very sorry Jamie. Tears are rolling down face as I write this. You are an inspiration. It is God, but also your extreme love and devotion to Zoe that has given her an extended life. I asked that my Abby would make it a few months till we movedvto our new house and she had lived 16 months so far with a lot of supplements and protein rich food. Love never dies.my heart aches for you and your family. You ate in my prayers. Joann Stamplis

    Reply
    1. Jamiegoff Post author

      Thanks so much! She isn’t currently in pain, but I know our time is short….I thank you for your prayers!! God is good and I pray for wisdom as we approach the end.

      Reply
      1. Joann stamplis

        I pray that Zoe will pass peacefully. I know the time will come with our Abby too. God is good and He has given us extra time with our beloved pets. It is such a hard decision. We only had to do that once. You will know what is right.god bless you.joann

        Reply
  2. Darlene

    Jammie, I’m also upset with your news. You have been an inspiration to us all and we are so greatful to have you and Zoe in our lives and for all your help with our pups. You are truly our guardian angel. You have given so many of us hope and extra months and years with our beloved pets. I thank you so much for that.
    I know the time will come for our Sparky when God will call him and I dread that day. Unfortunately they have such a short time with us with or without this horrible disease. Zoe has been so lucky to have you for his Mom. You have been so dedicated and gave him such a good quality of life. You researched and took such great care of him and I know he knows this and loves you more for all you’ve done. You not only helped Zoe but you were kind enough to share your findings with us all and cared so much with each of us that needed the support and help.
    What I keep telling myself is I won’t feel guilty that I could have done more or what could I have done to help our Sparky. I found you and you have given us all hope for that extra time and made so many of our dogs a better quality of life. Forgive me if I I am Repeating myself. There are no words to make you feel better.
    Again, my heart goes out to you and your family and also to your beloved Zoe. May God give you strength and help you through these difficult days ahead. My prayers and thoughts are with you. Love and Prayers, ❤️ Darlene

    Reply
    1. Jamiegoff Post author

      Thanks so much for your kind words, Darlene. It has been a truly remarkable journey and I know that others have benefited from our findings and that really does make it all worthwhile! I appreciate all the prayers and support!

      Reply
      1. Darlene

        Because of you I am trying my best to help others too! And pass on what ive learned from you! I just spent over 3 hours trying to help another one of our warriors. Something’s working for our Sparky and I have you to thank. I know this horrible disease will get Sparky but we do what we can to help. I’ve learned a lot and feel I have to pass it on to help other as you have. Keep us in touch and we are all here for you as you’ve been here for all of us. Prayers to you, Zoe and your family! ❤️

        Reply
  3. Mona

    Hi Jamie,
    I haven’t checked your blog for a while now so I thought things were still going well. Darlene told me about your recent post so I had to come on and see for myself, but I didn’t want to believe it! I am so sorry for Zoe’s declining condition. She has had a good long life and you both have been blessed to have each other. I hope she stays pain free and that you won’t have to make that awful decision to let her go. In the end I’m hoping that for Shelby too. Either way, my thoughts and prayers are with you and your family. Sending big online hugs…..wish they could make the pain go away but I know that’s not possible. Thank you again for trying to help the rest of us through this horrible process. Shelby hasn’t improved any yet but I’m not giving up.
    Take care and God bless!
    Mona

    Reply
    1. Jamiegoff Post author

      Thanks so much, Mona! I hope that Shelby does get to the point of improvement! It really is an awful disease and for Zoe it has always been about getting chicken stock in her at the appropriate intervals, but I think her age and her ability to fight back has now taken it’s toll. I pray that Shelby gets better!!

      Reply
  4. Diana

    Hi Jamie, I’m sorry to hear about Zoe’s decline, I pray it’s just a minor setback. It’s tough when all you want to do is make them better. Through hard work and lots of love you’ve made a horrible disease tolerable for her. I am grateful for this your very informative blog, it helped me in so many ways. I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

    You, Zoe and your family are in my thoughts and prayers.

    Reply
    1. Jamiegoff Post author

      Thanks so much, Diana! She has had several good days, but unless she miraculously turns around, I know her feet will begin to deteriorate. As a last ditch effort, I have added a powdered collagen supplement to her meals and her eggs. Thank you again for your prayers!

      Reply
      1. Joann stamplis

        Jamie, we give our Abby amino acids from GNC. I hate this vicious disease. We also got very Abby vitamin C and E and zinc along with as m ch Omega Acids we can get into her. Gid bless. JoAnn Stamplis

        Reply
        1. Jamiegoff Post author

          Yep, Zoe gets all of that (I’ve been using procell amino acid supplement since her initial diagnosis, but recently added ProMod and then a couple of days ago added the 3rd amino acid supplement. I don’t know what else to do, other than give her the very things that these dogs are known to have deficits of….In the past, the ONE thing that made the difference was the frequency of being able to get the amino acids in her, but at over 15 years old, it seems that her sweet but very old body has had enough….you are right, it is a vicious disease!

          Reply
          1. Diana

            Jamie, in January, Cady seemed to be regressing somewhat. She was fast approaching her 14th birthday so I attributed her small decline due to age and the disease. But, what I later found out was, she was fighting two major diseases at the same time. Her body just couldn’t keep up. My vet said that the body decides what it should fight and what it shouldn’t. It seemed her body put the hepa on the back burner and was fighting a large tumor in her chest. Maybe, Zoe is fighting more than just the disease. I’ve found that they really never let us know there is something wrong. Well, I was just passing along a thought.
            Prayers to all,
            Diana

          2. Jamiegoff Post author

            Thanks, Diana! I have found myself wondering what really is going on with her, since we have been so well controlled on the last several years, but since she is over 15, I do think her body may just be tired of fighting!

  5. Lee Gilbert

    So sorry to hear about Zoe. Cherish the time you now have with her. Your website will commemorate Zoe, all the love and care you gave her and the love she gave you, and how with God’s help you found a way to help the rest of us deal with this terrible disease. Reading your whole blog makes me feel I know Zoe as well as a neighbor’s dog.

    We lost Max, our Shih Tzu, at 6 years old in 2006, and now Murphy our Shih Tzu at nine is having to deal with this. Thankfully we found your website a couple of weeks ago when our local vet suggested we visit a dog dermatologist to rule out hepatocutaneous – unfortunately it confirmed HC this Monday with 90% confidence. She said we were in the early stages, as the liver has not progressed to the “Swiss cheese” stage. They want to do a biopsy (1/4” plug from his small paws), but we don’t want to subject him to that pain.

    We had started chicken stock from chicken feet last Thursday in anticipation of getting the bad news, and it does seem to be helping. We’ll be working with our local vet to get recommendations on diet support, and all the information in your blog comments.

    Please leave your website up forever for those of us who have to deal with this disease, and don’t want to be on Facebook.

    Reply
    1. Jamiegoff Post author

      Lee, thanks so much for your comments! The disease is horrible, but when Zoe was diagnosed there was absolutely not even a tiny amount of hope that she would live for more than a few months. I did the blog as a way to at least communicate that while I cannot offer anything more, we do at least have hope that we can give them a “lesion free” time after diagnosis. I am happy to speak with you to give you my personal insights, if that is helpful! My cell phone number is 205-296-2323. Please call me!

      Reply
    2. Darlene

      Lee, so sorry your pup Murphy has this. I’m so glad you caught this early. Jammie has been amazing helping all of us with this horrifying disease. I call her our Guardian Angel. This site gives us hope and it’s nice to know your not alone. There is s lot of support and love through this site. We also have a Facebok page that you might consider joining too.
      Our Westie, Sparky will be 10 in July and has had this disease now for 1 1/2 yrs. Our vet who’s a specialist with livers gave him 8 months to live. I didn’t find this site right away, his liver was Swiss cheese like. We noticed it in June and he was treated for 3 months for a yeast infection. Then we did a biopsy to confirm. That was around Oct 2013. I didn’t find Jammie till Feb! We lost a lot of time. He didn’t get better for about 6-7 months. So my advise to you is be patient. It’s more than just collagen, which is amazing for this. I’m making more as I write. It’s also a lot of supplements every day. No more canned stuff and lots of veggies, fish, etc. the list is quite long. Everything is home made. Nothing processed.
      Sparkys doing quite well at the moment. Not quite his old self but close. He plays and is finally interested in everything around him he still has some issues but so much better than before.
      I know our vet is amazed with Sparky and how much he has improved. She’s even taking notes! We all try to help each other so if you need support I’m here also. 732-693-6499. Best of luck and sending ❤️ Darlene

      Reply
  6. Lee Gilbert

    Jamie:
    Thanks for the offer to call you, which I will as soon as we get the rest of the results in on the fungal and bacterial cultures. The dermatologist recommended Procell (1 tsp daily), allerderm EFA Z plus (gradual increase until recommendation on bottle), 1 egg daily, zinc sulfate 50 mg twice daily as nutrition supplements, and to continue the chicken stock. He has a variety of prescription shampoos, proviable DC probiotic, ear cleaner, etc., not much for amino support. She did say to get an appointment with a vet nutritionist in our area (northern NJ). We definitely want to speak with you in the next few days – when is the best time to call?
    And thanks to Darlene for the support.
    Thanks
    Lee

    Reply
      1. Lee Gilbert

        Darlene:
        Nutley, exit 151 on the Parkway. When we were at the dermatologist vet, she told us she used to work at the Red Bank vet, and said there was a high concentration of Shih Tzus in that area with HC. They are trying to create a “family tree” to see if they could find the source, and suspected both Max and Murphy are in that tree. Perhaps other breeds were involved, too.
        Lee

        Reply
  7. Mona

    Hi Jamie – Just wanted to check in with you and see how Zoe is doing? Think about you guys often…….take good care!

    Reply
    1. Darlene

      Hi Lee, my husbands from Nutley! We sold hisMoms house a couple of years ago on Whitford Ave! I’m from Cifton!
      That’s where we go, to Red Bank Vet Hospital. I see cars from all over, other states, in their parking lot. They’re very good. Let me know if decide to go there.

      Reply
      1. Lee Gilbert

        Hi, Darlene:
        We live on Chestnut Street near Ridge Road. We use Dr. Crupi in Nutley as our regular vet, and Animal Emergency and Referral Associates (AREA) in Fairfield as the specialist equivalent of Red Bank. AERA recommended we contact a nutritionist at Oradell Animal Hospital, but we want to talk to Jamie first.

        Reply
    2. Jamiegoff Post author

      Thanks, Mona! Zoe is holding steady right now. Since facial lesions usually respond to treatment (historically) within 8-10 days, we are giving her about another week to see if there is any appreciable difference (good or bad). I know that as bad as her face looks that her feet are about to start and quite honestly, I don’t want to make her suffer, if I can’t see any improvement with the addition of 2 more collagen sources. I haven’t given up hope yet, but am continuing to pray!

      Reply
      1. Darlene

        I know your doing what’s best for Zoe. She’s been so lucky to have you by her side through all of this. You are all in my prayers! God Bless. ❤️

        Reply
  8. Mona

    Shelby has had the lip lesions for the longest time, and now has some around her eyes. I haven’t seen any real improvement in any areas which is why I worry all the time. I ordered some additional supplements so hoping that along with what I’ve been doing will make a difference. I often wonder if I should end her suffering too, how long is too long to try this if it’s not working? This disease is horrible and it just gets to you sometimes. Not ready to let go yet, but it’s hard that’s for sure. Prayers all around……please keep us posted.

    Reply
    1. Jamiegoff Post author

      How often are you giving Shelby chicken stock and supplements? If Zoe doesn’t get is at frequent enough intervals, she used to get break-thru lesions. Also, how are Shelby’s feet?

      Reply
  9. Mona

    Hi Jamie – Her feet are still bad, not infected, just crusty. When I soak them they get infected so I don’t do it as often as I probably should. She has one lesion on her belly on one of her fatty lumps and her one eye has lesions around the one side. She still eats well and seems okay other than she can’t get around like she used to cuz of her feet. I give her the stock 4 times a day, 8am, 1pm, 6pm, 10pm. The 1 and 6 time slots are given with her egg. I don’t know what else to try, but so far her lip lesions and her feet have pretty much stayed the same for quite a while. Maybe she’s just one of the dogs this won’t help, but if you have any other suggestions I’m open to anything. I don’t want to bother you cuz you have your own dog to think about, but I appreciate your help.

    Reply
    1. Diana

      Mona, I used bag balm and wrapped Cadys feet at night. During her infection stage they were wrapped all the time, if anything to give her feet a cushion. Diana

      Reply
    2. Jamiegoff Post author

      Hi Mona, what protein supplement does she get? I understand your concern, now more than ever, because Zoe has now become “that dog” who doesn’t seem to respond to what she has responded to so well over that last 2-1/2 years!

      My last ditch effort is this: stock 4 x’s a day (2 times with meals and 2 times with eggs….making sure the egg White is fully cooked)
      In addition, she gets protein supplements with the chicken stock. I have been giving her Procell as the collagen (protein) supplement. I have continued that and now have added ProMod (liquid collagen supplement…now up to 6 cc’s 4 x’s a day, plus one teaspoon (heaping) of unflavored Great Lakes gelatin (also 4 times a day)
      I just added Standard Process Hepatrophin PMG and Dermatrophin PMG 1 each per day, as a compounding pharmacist (who is wholistic in nature) suggested that these could benefit. I have copied and pasted a portion of his email back to me about these:

      you might want to consider Hepatrophin PMG and Dermatrophin PMG – all these do is divert any antibodies away that may be attacking the liver and skin.

      This opens up a window of healing opportunity. And if we give the body the nutrition it needs, this healing can occur. Once healed, nothing for the antibodies to continue attacking.

      Give 1-2 tablets twice daily depending on size of dog. Also, would give Catalyn with these for the nutrition part 3 daily.

      As a side note, I haven’t added Catalyn yet and probably will increase both Hepatrophin and Dermatrophin to 1 pill twice a day before I add the Catalyn. I am a firm believer that you need to slowly add supplements, so they don’t get diarrhea…..every time I suddenly add something at full dose it totally messes us ALL up! I gradually increase supplements to keep her body from freaking out and me having to clean up the big D!

      Guess we will all find out what happens with these changes…..continuing to pray for us all and our sweet babes!

      Reply
  10. Mona

    Hi Diana & Jamie – I have the bag balm and have used it previously on Shelby, but unfortunately at night when I can’t keep an eye on her she rips off and eats the entire tape and bandages. We bought socks to put on instead and she pulls those off also. She’s still fiesty I’ll give her that!
    Jamie – I do have the ProMod but she won’t touch it. Guess I could try mixing a little in yogurt or something but so far I haven’t had any luck so it’s sitting in my fridge. 🙁 The 2 new supplements you’re adding, is that available anywhere to buy? Never heard of them so not sure where to look. I’m willing to try anything cuz she seems to be going downhill a bit more lately.
    One other thing I forgot to ask was did any of your dogs go in lake water during this disease? My inlaws have a cottage we went to last weekend. I put Shelby’s socks on, then boots over that so she would have some padding when walking around. The minute I was done putting them on she heading down to the water like she used to do. I grabbed her quick so she wouldn’t get wet, but you could tell she really wanted IN! Think that would make her feet worse to wade in shallow water? Just kills me that she can’t do any of the things she used to love to do. I hate this disease!!!!!!
    More prayers for all of us – thanks so much!

    Reply
    1. Darlene

      I mix the ProMod with the liquid Ameno and Pet Tinic I told you about. If it’s not too cold out I’d let her wade in the water. It’s soaking her feet. Than put the bag balm on after washing them so they’re clean. I’d let her do anything she wants and enjoys. ❤️ Yes, God Help Us!

      Reply
    2. Jamiegoff Post author

      Hi Mona, I would be worried that lake water could have too many “organisms” that could cause an infection

      Reply
      1. Diana

        Hi Mona, Cady chewed her bandages off at first. Then, I put some of the bitters on there, and then I wrapped them with sports tape. The kind that baseball players use and it takes a lot to get it off unless you cut it. I also sometimes put on these paper like booties I found in petsmart. They came in handy when she went outside because they kept her feet dry. They were easy to get on and off and saved me the time of having to wrap again. When I’d leave for a short time she wore the pillow cone, just in case. After a few weeks she got use to them and no longer tried to chew her bandages off. Hope this helps. Diana

        Reply
  11. Lee Gilbert

    Hi, Jamie: We pray that Zoe is doing well with the new treatment regime you are using. Your training as a nurse is giving Zoe a great chance to be with you for some time.

    We wanted to thank you for taking the time last Sunday to talk with us. Yesterday was two weeks since we started Murphy on the chicken stock. It is amazing how this has helped him, along with the medicines from the vet, especially the ResiKetoChlor, applied as you suggested. He now chases squirrels, insists on a walk, and last night was playing with two other dogs on his walk. Also, one lesion on his leg has all but disappeared, and the crusts on his feet are improving, with some coming off when he is bathed. We give him stock and a probiotic with his food for his first meal, stock and Procell with his food for his second meal, an egg for his third meal, and stock and Allerderm Omega 3 with his fourth meal. He also gets a Zinpro biscuit during the day. Is there anything else you suggest? Is it OK to use Novolsan during the day on his feet, and then ResiKetoChlor at night?

    We know this is temporary, but his quality of life has improved so much in such a short time, and hopefully will continue for some time. You were truly sent from God.

    Reply
    1. Jamiegoff Post author

      Thanks for your prayers. Zoe is slowly declining. She spends more and more time away from us and in the quiet of her bed that is in our bedroom. I snuggled on the sofa with her last night….knowing our time is limited…..BUT I only prayed for a year and it’s been over 2-1/2, so God has given us a wonderful time with her!

      I’m not familiar with Novolsan, but as long as it’s something your vet gave you, I’m sure it’s fine.

      It sounds like you are doing well. My theory is that it’s the frequency with which these dogs are able to get amino acids: found in stock, in the supplements and in meat and eggs. What kind of food is he getting? Did you move to Dr. Dodds diet or is he on commercially made food?

      I continue to pray for each of our animals and the ones who care for them, as I know this disease is quite cruel we all are grateful for the time we have with them!

      Reply
  12. Lee Gilbert

    Hi, Jamie:
    Murphy is on Hills W/D prescription dog food, since he has colitis. We have an appointment with a nutritionist Monday, and will discuss Dr. Dodd’s diet – I’m just a little concerned about the white potatoes, since I’m pre-diabetic and they are off limits for me, and I thought I read in my research that a lot of dogs with HC develop diabetes. I do intend to email Dr. Dodd after we speak with the nutritionist. Again, thanks for all your help.

    Reply
    1. Jamiegoff Post author

      Yep! That makes sense! Zoe gets sweet potatoes, not white potatoes, as sweet potatoes have a lower glycemic index than white ones…..as crazy as that sounds!

      Reply
  13. Mona

    Hi Jamie – Been reading some of the posts on this blog again and came across the ResiKetoChlo info. Never seen this before, is it for the hair/coats of the dog or can it be used on their paws also? Shelby still has no improvement and like your Zoe eats and then heads to somewhere she can be left alone. Had you not seen Zoe get better in the beginning, how long do you think you’d have continued with everything? I’m getting more depressed as time goes on and she’s no better. Wondering how Shelby compares now to other owners who chose to say goodbye to their dog. If only she could tell me how much pain she’s in. Hope you and Zoe are doing okay….thanks again for your help.

    Reply
  14. Lee Gilbert

    Mona:
    The dermatological vet gave us ResiketoChlor, with instructions to apply to skin when unable to bath, or dilute with just enough water to make a liquid that can be sprayed. Jamie suggested we put it full strength by hand on Murphy’s paws, and it has really improved them. We also use the spray on the lesion on his leg (which is just about gone) and under his chin (also just about gone). The ResiketoChlor seems to have accelerated the healing.

    I read in one of the blog entries that when the stock is frozen, when it defrosts it turns to liquid. We make it from chicken feet according to this recipe, minus the veggies: http://www.simplyrecipes.com/recipes/how_to_make_stock_from_chicken_feet/. When this defrosts most of it stays a gel – maybe it has more collagen, thus more amino acid? Just a suggestion, and Murphy is also at the early stages so he is probably more responsive to the stock. Hope this helps Shelby.

    Reply
  15. Mona

    Thanks Lee, always good to have more info! I wondered that about the chicken stock, is it as powerful after being frozen. Anybody know how long it would keep in the fridge in the gel form without freezing? I’ll have to look into the chicken feet, not sure where around here I could buy them. Thanks again……..

    Reply
    1. Jamiegoff Post author

      Mona, I buy Zoe’s chicken feet at a local Asian market. I use the whole chicken carcass and add about 1.25-1.5 lbs of feet, so the stock is nice and firm. On a side note, are you using omega fatty acid supplements?

      Reply
      1. Darlene

        I’m dealing with Sparkys feet and under his tail again! So it’s back to soaking and wrapping again! He’s still acting good and he did have one day that he didn’t want to eat what I made him for dinner. He’s Back to being picky with fish and chicken. Funny he has no problem eating filet mignon! We had some leftovers so I wanted to see if he’d eat it. He did! Tonight he had a turkey burger but would only eat it if I fed him on my lap! He is spoiled! But that’s OK, I was surprised, tonight my husband took him for a walk. Something he hasn’t done in a while. Harry said it was Sparkys idea! Every day you pray it will be a good day.
        Hang in there Mona! Tomorrow I’m going to try and find chicken feet! And the other stuff mentioned for the crust.

        Reply
    2. Jamiegoff Post author

      Mona, forgot to answer your other question: I use it for about 5 days from the fridge, stock that is older than about 6 days old and Zoe get looser stools…..not good 😉

      Reply
  16. Darlene

    I freeze my collagen in quart bags and I add extra ammeno. I buy pills and open them up and each quart bag gets one. I whisk it in. When you take out a bag of collagen it takes a goid 2 days to defrost.

    Reply
  17. Mona

    Just read an article about the chicken stock. Not sure if this works, but I’m going to try it. Instead of putting the stock in a large bowl to harden and then remove the fat on the top, they say to put it in individual containers right away. Leaving the fat on the top allows the stock to be kept in the refrigerator and good for 6 months. Anyone ever done it this way?

    Reply
    1. Jamiegoff Post author

      Mona, I don’t freeze mine, but store it in the fridge in Mason jars and only skim the fast off when I open that jar. I don’t use it past 6 days, since it causes diarrhea for her after that. Hope that helps!

      Reply
    2. Darlene

      I hope this site is still running. I haven’t gotten any posts from it.
      Sparky was doing so well. I have control over his crusting, he’s alert and playing. Eating well but last week he started having accidents at night downstarirs and drinking all of his water that we keep in our bedroom. He’s been having floods! I got him doggie diapers but they slid right off. Then I got hm a reusesbke washable male wrap. That didn’t hold much urine so I put a feminine pad in it. That didn’t hold the urine either. His fur was soaked as the carpet he slept on by our bed. Early bath time.
      So yesterday we took him to his vets and as we suspected he now has diabeties! So 2x a day we have to give him insulin shots!
      I know I’ve heard a lot of you guys taking about their dogs having diabeties. So any helpful hints would be appreciated. Like feeding before the shots. How much food? How long has your dogs had this. I read in a year most go blind! And we were to,give shots 12 hrs apart. He sleeps in so usually he eats around 8:30-9 am. Doe as that mean he doesn’t get dinner till 9 PM? Confusing. I will talk to the vet today.
      Hoping all your fur babies are doing well.
      ❤️ Darlene

      Reply
      1. Jamiegoff Post author

        Darlene, please call me at 205.296.2323. I can walk you thru how we handle this with Zoe (it gets better!). It’s pretty rough at the beginning, though!

        Reply

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